From wetleather@micapeak.com Tue Nov 18 11:54:16 1997
Received: from proxy2.ba.best.com (root@proxy2.ba.best.com [206.184.139.13]) by shell9.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA06315; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:53:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: from alutia.micapeak.com (alutia.micapeak.com [199.79.239.92]) by proxy2.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.8.BEST) with ESMTP id LAA10583; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:50:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: from alutia.micapeak.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by alutia.micapeak.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA20391;
Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:28:48 -0800
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:28:48 -0800
Message-Id: <199711181935.LAA01697@shell9.ba.best.com>
Errors-To: wetleather-owner@micapeak.com
Reply-To: wetleather@micapeak.com
Originator: wetleather@micapeak.com
Sender: wetleather@micapeak.com
Precedence: bulk
From: Leigh Ann Hussey
To: Northwest Bikers Social Mailing List
Subject: Ta kill ya
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Northwest Bikers Social Mailing List
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971117190113.00993340@lemond.cse.ogi.edu> from Mark Morrissey at "Nov 17, 97 07:47:33 pm"
Status: RO
MiG (I think it was) said something like "Triple Sec in margaritas is
an abomination unless you're using inferior tequila" Yah, well, two
things to say about that:
1) They don't export the Really Good stuff. My friend John brought
me back a bottle of Herradura in a grade that never gets north of the
border unless dragged there by some turista. It was AMAZING. I'm
not a big tequila fan, except in the context of Margaritas, and this
stuff was the closest to being potable in neat form that I've ever had.
2) The thing about your Classic (tm) Cocktail is that it has to have
three things: strength, sweetness, and sourness. Consider my fave:
the Sidecar. Cognac (strong), Cointreau (sweet), lemon juice (sour).
So by me, the Cointreau has to be in there if you're talking about
classic proportions. If you're talking about nothing but ta kill ya
and citrus juice, well, you might be the sort of person who likes
a martini so dry it might be nothing but gin (or worse: vodka).
Actually, I lied: I have three things to say about that:
3) This is clearly one of those Great And Portentious Topics that
should be discussed over beer -- or better, over the cocktails in
question. Now I'm even more determined to bring my shaker to the
Gather.
In other mixed drink news: the recording studio where we made the
new CD (which ought to be in our hands Any Day Now) had a back
garden absolutely overrun with nopal cactus laden with ripe tunas.
I thought: "Hey! Rolland and his cactus margaritas!!" I picked a
bunch of them (they're in my freezer awaiting my having time to
deal with them). Then I spent the next week and a half plucking
hair-thin tuna spines out of my clothes and my person. Even though
I'd worn latex gloves to pick them, the cacti seemed just to breathe
spines... still, it was worth it. What a smell the tunas give
off on a warm day! Now I have to decide whether to go ahead and
make cactus 'ritas out of them, or to do something even more out
there, like make cactus wine...
- EC
From wetleather@micapeak.com Tue Nov 18 13:23:52 1997
Received: from proxy1.ba.best.com (root@proxy1.ba.best.com [206.184.139.12]) by shell9.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA01821; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:22:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from alutia.micapeak.com (alutia.micapeak.com [199.79.239.92]) by proxy1.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.8.BEST) with ESMTP id NAA04125; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:19:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: from alutia.micapeak.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by alutia.micapeak.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA22296;
Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:58:49 -0800
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:58:49 -0800
Message-Id: <9711188798.AA879887678@mail.spectrumsignal.com>
Errors-To: wetleather-owner@micapeak.com
Reply-To: wetleather@micapeak.com
Originator: wetleather@micapeak.com
Sender: wetleather@micapeak.com
Precedence: bulk
From: "MARGUERITE STORBO"
To: Northwest Bikers Social Mailing List
Subject: Re: Ta kill ya
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Northwest Bikers Social Mailing List
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
MIME-Version: 1.0
Status: RO
Yah, well, two things to say about that:
1) They don't export the Really Good stuff.
My point, exactly. If you don't have good tequila, make a
"cocktail' with Cointreau.
2) The thing about your Classic (tm) Cocktail is that it has to have three
things: strength, sweetness, and sourness. If you're talking about nothing but
ta kill ya and citrus juice, well, you might be the sort of person who likes a
martini so dry it might be nothing but gin (or worse: vodka).
Yeah, so, your point is? ;^)
It is My Contention that a margarita is not a "cocktail": ymmv.
It's like my Other Contention that tequila is not alcohol/liquor.
Again, ymmv, and I have no scientific or other proof to back up
either view. Nor do I want any, thankyouverymuch.
3) This is clearly one of those Great And Portentious Topics that
should be discussed over beer -- or better, over the cocktails in
question. Now I'm even more determined to bring my shaker to the
Gather.
Shakers at 20 paces! I'll bring my Secret Ingredients, you bring
yours, and we'll have a Classic 'rita-Off.
In other mixed drink news: the recording studio where we made the
new CD (which ought to be in our hands Any Day Now) had a back
garden absolutely overrun with nopal cactus laden with ripe tunas.
I thought: "Hey! Rolland and his cactus margaritas!!"
Speaking of which, we saw them in Zion (I might be retreading
stories here) but didn't dare pick 'em in the National Park.
Yeah, the smell is incredible. Made my mouth water.
Bring 'em to the Gather. I'll help peel, etc. No competition
here, though: just mutual enjoyment...
MiG
From wetleather@micapeak.com Tue Nov 18 13:57:39 1997
Received: from proxy1.ba.best.com (root@proxy1.ba.best.com [206.184.139.12]) by shell9.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA12103; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:57:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: from alutia.micapeak.com (alutia.micapeak.com [199.79.239.92]) by proxy1.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.8.BEST) with ESMTP id NAA13514; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:53:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: from alutia.micapeak.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by alutia.micapeak.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA22925;
Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:32:36 -0800
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:32:36 -0800
Message-Id: <199711182146.NAA26987@baygate.bayarea.net>
Errors-To: wetleather-owner@micapeak.com
Reply-To: wetleather@micapeak.com
Originator: wetleather@micapeak.com
Sender: wetleather@micapeak.com
Precedence: bulk
From: Jim Franklin
To: Northwest Bikers Social Mailing List
Subject: Re: Ta kill ya
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Northwest Bikers Social Mailing List
Status: RO
> Shakers at 20 paces! I'll bring my Secret Ingredients, you bring
> yours, and we'll have a Classic 'rita-Off.
Since I started the topic, I feel obliged to be the official tester/taster
for this event. I'll sandwich myself between you two...hmmmm...um...(must...
concentrate...must...not...be..distracted...rrrrip) and judge the quality and
originality of the ritas. Winner gets...winner gets to make more.
jim
From wetleather@micapeak.com Tue Nov 18 14:31:27 1997
Received: from proxy2.ba.best.com (root@proxy2.ba.best.com [206.184.139.13]) by shell9.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA20829; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:31:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: from alutia.micapeak.com (alutia.micapeak.com [199.79.239.92]) by proxy2.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.8.BEST) with ESMTP id OAA26942; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:29:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from alutia.micapeak.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by alutia.micapeak.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA23686;
Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:08:39 -0800
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:08:39 -0800
Message-Id: <9711182209.AA69604@maix>
Errors-To: wetleather-owner@micapeak.com
Reply-To: wetleather@micapeak.com
Originator: wetleather@micapeak.com
Sender: wetleather@micapeak.com
Precedence: bulk
From: martin@plaza.ds.adp.com
To: Northwest Bikers Social Mailing List
Subject: Re: Ta kill ya
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Northwest Bikers Social Mailing List
Content-Type: text
In-Reply-To: <9711188798.AA879887678@mail.spectrumsignal.com> from "MARGUERITE STORBO" at Nov 18, 97 01:58:44 pm
Status: RO
MiG said:
> It is My Contention that a margarita is not a "cocktail": ymmv.
> It's like my Other Contention that tequila is not alcohol/liquor.
> Again, ymmv, and I have no scientific or other proof to back up
> either view. Nor do I want any, thankyouverymuch.
Ah. We have left the fruitful discussion about what is the best margarita,
and have substituted an entirely pointless discussion about linguistics
(Do words 'mean' what the speaker intends, or what the listener
understands?) or, one could argue, art: "I don't know anything about
margaritas, but I know what I like." I suspect many more good threads
are made useless by dialectics than are executed for violations of
Godwin's Law.
While a tequila-and-lime might be a perfectly delicious beverage, and
one might even go so far as to order "A margarita. Stirred, not blended,
and hold the Cointreau", just as one might order "A vodka martini, very
dry" when one is too embarrassed to say "Vodka rocks!", that isn't
enough to change the _language_. A margarita is a term for a real thing,
and that thing includes some quantity of an orange flavored liqueur.
(Oddly, Microsoft Bookshelf '95 has no reference for either cointreau
or triple sec, but defines absinthe. Go figure.)
LeighAnn challenged:
>> 3) This is clearly one of those Great And Portentious Topics that
>> should be discussed over beer -- or better, over the cocktails in
>> question.
> Shakers at 20 paces! I'll bring my Secret Ingredients, you bring
> yours, and we'll have a Classic 'rita-Off.
Nope. A cocktail off, perhaps. A mixed-drink-off, certainly. But one
cannot redefine margaritas simply because one doesn't _like_ them.
The discussion does make me wonder what a couple of shots of tequila
would do with a shot and a half of Ellen's wonderful lemons' juice and
a large twist of the peel thereof. Whatever it is, it won't be a margarita.
Correction: whatever THEY ARE, nobody will care if they're a margarita.
>> In other mixed drink news: the recording studio where we made the
>> new CD (which ought to be in our hands Any Day Now) had a back
>> garden absolutely overrun with nopal cactus laden with ripe tunas.
> Bring 'em to the Gather. I'll help peel, etc.
Flame the spines off, then run 'em through the food mill, which you'll
have reminded me to bring the one that runs off the can opener.
Pontificate over potables,
Martin
Martin Golding | If I'd wanted all that water in my beer,
Dod #0236 KotLQ | why would I have paid so much to have it dehydrated?
martin@plaza.ds.adp.com Portland, OR
From wetleather@micapeak.com Tue Nov 18 15:08:53 1997
Received: from proxy2.ba.best.com (root@proxy2.ba.best.com [206.184.139.13]) by shell9.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA29873; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:07:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: from alutia.micapeak.com (alutia.micapeak.com [199.79.239.92]) by proxy2.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.8.BEST) with ESMTP id PAA08459; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:04:32 -0800 (PST)
Received: from alutia.micapeak.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by alutia.micapeak.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA24517;
Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:43:47 -0800
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:43:47 -0800
Message-Id: <9711188798.AA879894055@mail.spectrumsignal.com>
Errors-To: wetleather-owner@micapeak.com
Reply-To: wetleather@micapeak.com
Originator: wetleather@micapeak.com
Sender: wetleather@micapeak.com
Precedence: bulk
From: "MARGUERITE STORBO"
To: Northwest Bikers Social Mailing List
Subject: Re[2]: Ta kill ya
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Northwest Bikers Social Mailing List
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
MIME-Version: 1.0
Status: RO
Martin pontificates on one of the subjects he knows well:
A margarita is a term for a real thing, and that thing includes some quantity of
an orange flavored liqueur.
Sez who? Who invented margaritas, and where and when(and how)? Is
it a documented fact that a margarita must contain an
orange-flavoured liqueur? I am not arguing that it is or it
isn't, just wondering.
However, mypoint was not that I was redefining some
carved-in-stone recipe that someone has somewhere, but that it is
a matter of taste, as are most things edible/drinkable.
Now we can argue about what constitutes Good Taste, but that
argument, I submit, is never won by pointing convincingly to some
hoary recipe.
On the subject of hoary recipes, of course, I would bow, without
reservation, to your superior knowledge and culinary skill.
Just don't put any of that orange shit in my margarita!
MiG
From wetleather@micapeak.com Tue Nov 18 15:25:36 1997
Received: from proxy2.ba.best.com (root@proxy2.ba.best.com [206.184.139.13]) by shell9.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA04027; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:25:17 -0800 (PST)
Received: from alutia.micapeak.com (alutia.micapeak.com [199.79.239.92]) by proxy2.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.8.BEST) with ESMTP id PAA14025; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:22:43 -0800 (PST)
Received: from alutia.micapeak.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by alutia.micapeak.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA24948;
Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:01:54 -0800
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:01:54 -0800
Message-Id: <3472263A.1BBB@halcyon.com>
Errors-To: wetleather-owner@micapeak.com
Reply-To: wetleather@micapeak.com
Originator: wetleather@micapeak.com
Sender: wetleather@micapeak.com
Precedence: bulk
From: Rolland Waters
To: Northwest Bikers Social Mailing List
Subject: Re: Ta kill ya
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Northwest Bikers Social Mailing List
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
References: <9711182209.AA69604@maix>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Status: RO
martin@plaza.ds.adp.com wrote:
> Flame the spines off, then run 'em through the food mill,
I take a garden hose on full to my tunas, it wipes out most
of the spines. Put 'em in a big colander and stand back.
Then just run them through the mill.
From wetleather@micapeak.com Tue Nov 18 15:48:40 1997
Received: from proxy1.ba.best.com (root@proxy1.ba.best.com [206.184.139.12]) by shell9.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09396; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:48:22 -0800 (PST)
Received: from alutia.micapeak.com (alutia.micapeak.com [199.79.239.92]) by proxy1.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.8.BEST) with ESMTP id PAA18058; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:45:29 -0800 (PST)
Received: from alutia.micapeak.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by alutia.micapeak.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA25498;
Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:24:37 -0800
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:24:37 -0800
Message-Id: <9711182340.AA96098@maix>
Errors-To: wetleather-owner@micapeak.com
Reply-To: wetleather@micapeak.com
Originator: wetleather@micapeak.com
Sender: wetleather@micapeak.com
Precedence: bulk
From: martin@plaza.ds.adp.com
To: Northwest Bikers Social Mailing List
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Ta kill ya
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Northwest Bikers Social Mailing List
Content-Type: text
In-Reply-To: <9711188798.AA879894055@mail.spectrumsignal.com> from "MARGUERITE STORBO" at Nov 18, 97 03:43:44 pm
Status: RO
I remarked:
> A margarita is a term for a real thing, and that thing includes some
> quantity of an orange flavored liqueur.
MiG challenges:
> Sez who?
Microsoft:
"mar.ga.ri.ta [pronounciation not transcribed] noun
A cocktail made with tequila, an orange-flavored liqueur, and lemon or
lime juice, often served with salt encrusted on the rim of the glass."
> Who invented margaritas, and where and when(and how)?
Somebody's girlfriend nicknamed Margarita, in Mexico, for parties of
expatriate businessmen and artists. (I've always wanted to be an
expatriate and throw parties for artists, but all I ever get is bikers,
and French bikers'd be an awfully miserable excuse for a reason to move
to Paris.) I'll see if I can track down my references.
> Is it a documented fact that a margarita must contain an
> orange-flavoured liqueur?
The original margarita certainly did. But. We are now back to linguistics,
from a _much_ more interesting angle. The source for word meanings is
exactly their use (which reduces dictionaries from the holy pedestal on
which they reside in most classrooms, to the outdated journalism they
really are). So your question ought properly to be restated, is there
a dialect, other than your own, in which 'margarita' refers to a drink
that does NOT contain the appropriate splash of liqueur? Given that
the term, once co-opted to refer to tequila slushies, was rapidly
corrupted to refer to pretty near ANY fruit-like substance with some
sort of tequila, there's a very good chance that one could justify, at
least as a lower-class slang reference, using 'margarita' to refer to
any tequila-plus-whatever cocktail. One WOULDN'T, of course, but one
probably could.
> However, mypoint was not that I was redefining some
> carved-in-stone recipe that someone has somewhere, but that it is
> a matter of taste, as are most things edible/drinkable.
But you didn't PRESENT it as a matter of taste, you presented it as
a matter of _definition_. Once one discards the meaning of the word,
what prevents a margarita from being, say, a slivovitz collins (which
contains an alcohol thing and a sour-ish thing, and ought to be quite
good, presuming the quality of the slivovitz)?
> Now we can argue about what constitutes Good Taste, but that
> argument, I submit, is never won by pointing convincingly to some
> hoary recipe.
Absolutely not. Now that the discussion of mere definition is quite
settled, we can ask the _important_ questions, such as "is the flavor
of a tequila-lime cocktail always superior to that of a margarita", "does
tequila-lime actually subsume the margarita, thus rendering margaritas
irrelevant", "How much Rose's lime juice can one use, and should one".
I look forward to investigating the question most thoroughly, with your
erudite assistance.
> Just don't put any of that orange shit in my margarita!
:-/
Martin
Martin Golding | If I'd wanted all that water in my beer,
Dod #0236 KotLQ | why would I have paid so much to have it dehydrated?
martin@plaza.ds.adp.com Portland, OR
From wetleather@micapeak.com Tue Nov 18 17:52:47 1997
Received: from proxy1.ba.best.com (root@proxy1.ba.best.com [206.184.139.12]) by shell9.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA10699; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:52:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from alutia.micapeak.com (alutia.micapeak.com [199.79.239.92]) by proxy1.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.8.BEST) with ESMTP id RAA02176; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:49:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from alutia.micapeak.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by alutia.micapeak.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA27982;
Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:29:10 -0800
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:29:10 -0800
Message-Id: <9711190139.AA75202@maix>
Errors-To: wetleather-owner@micapeak.com
Reply-To: wetleather@micapeak.com
Originator: wetleather@micapeak.com
Sender: wetleather@micapeak.com
Precedence: bulk
From: martin@plaza.ds.adp.com
To: Northwest Bikers Social Mailing List
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Ta kill ya
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Northwest Bikers Social Mailing List
Content-Type: text
In-Reply-To: <01BCF43C.089F3D40.carl.paukstis@olsy-na.com> from "Carl Paukstis" at Nov 18, 97 04:58:59 pm
Status: RO
Carl remarks:
> I'll order Bloody Mary in any bar where I don't know the tender. Which is
> nearly any bar. I.e. it's a crapshoot, so cut your losses when possible.
I have an entirely different philosophy about that. I'm always interested
in what people _think_ and local customs and the like, and have a well
honed Sense of Adventure.
So when I'm someplace I don't know, with an opportunity to order a drink
(since I have a well stocked bar at home, I'm _always_ someplace I don't
know when I have an opportunity to order a drink (don't these parenthetical
excursions get annoying?)), I order "A dry vermouth and soda".
On the Oregon coast, I actually had to explain that "dry vermouth" was
a gin martini without the gin. Swear to God!
But my most favorite adventure was in Wilkes-Barre Pennsylvania, where
there is a HUGE auto-mall, and very nearly nothing else, barring the
airport and the car rental agency, run and owned respectively by the
guy who owns the auto-mall, in a pleasant family sort of hotel, Holiday
Inn or the like.
They'd obviously had some training in projecting class, as the high school
girls that waited on the tables were very prim and proper and careful to
get all the restaurant proprieties correct, except for an absolutely
adorable tendency to giggle unexpectedly (though not unprovoked, they were
SO _cute_, like puppies pretending to be big doggies, I had to tease them
a _little_).
When I ordered the "dry vermouth and soda", I carelessly invoked one of
those subtle dialect problems (like what IS a margarita). She brought the
drink in a tall (collins style) glass, and remarked "You didn't say what
kind of soda, so I used Coke. Is that all right?"
It was my fault, I'd started it, and I'm neither cruel nor unfair, so I
couldn't rightly tell her to take it back, so I smiled and nodded (and
she giggled) and, since it was _there_, I pretty much had to _try_ it.
Vermouth and Coke are surprisingly non-toxic, though I've never had the
urge to repeat the experiment.
> After a long day, I can be content with Snap-E-Tom and Taaka if necessary,
> but *sometimes* one will run into quite a decent drink with this order.
My favorite bloody mary is the one served in the Ram Bar in Timberline,
when it's bloody hot in Portland so we get on our motorcycle and ride
out I-84 to Hood River which, when it's bloody hot in Portland, is up to
asphalt melting temperatures, so you ride up the mountain as fast as
traffic and traffic enforcement allow and it's still dry and hot until
you turn off on the road to the lodge where there's just a ghost of a cool
breeze teasing you up to the parking lot, which is wonderfully empty in
summer, and you walk up to the Ram Bar where a lovely folk singer is
stroking memories out of her guitar and you sip the bloody mary while
you listen to the music and cool off and rehydrate and watch the sun
slide up the mountain until it gets cool enough that the ride back to
Portland doesn't _hurt_, and you putt slowly (and carefully, you've had
a drink) back through the thickening dark to home.
The last time we went it was a bad jug band with ten foot speakers, so
we haven't done that since.
Ride for fun,
Martin
Martin Golding | Of course, this being WetLeather,
Dod #236 KotLQ KotSM | you'll need a certain appreciation for adventure.
martin@plaza.ds.adp.com Portland, OR (T Wilson)